Mystery ’Train Song’ Has Beatles Experts Divided

Bill King takes a look at a mystery track that has surfaced recently …

The buzz in Beatles circles the past week or so has been a rare recording that appears in the film “A Hard Day’s Night” and may or may not have been done by The Beatles.

The music is heard briefly during a scene aboard a train in "A Hard Day's Night."

The music is heard briefly during a scene aboard a train in “A Hard Day’s Night.”

Here’s the story. Legendary collector Dave Morrell, who has a new book out, guested on Chris Carter’s “Breakfast With The Beatles” radio show on KLOS-FM in Los Angeles and played a 30-second stereo version of the “Train Music” that blared from a transistor radio Ringo turns on in a famous scene of the movie where The Beatles are in a train compartment. An older passenger objects to the music and turns it off.

Although the music is only heard in the film for a few seconds, it is part of the longer clip played by Morrell, who said the recording was found in a box labeled “The Beatles.” According to a Beatles Examiner report, it was auctioned in the past on eBay with this description: “The cardboard EMITAPE box is 5 inches in size, & has a piece of green colored Twickenham Film Studios paperwork partially attached to the back of the box, with several other torn off pieces of the old paperwork housed inside the box, this green paper is quite brittle from age, one can make out the words ‘Hard Days Night’ handwritten on the faded document.”

The clip can be heard here.

But is it The Beatles? Those who think it is cite an entry in John C. Winn’s book “Way Beyond Compare” that says: “…the film producer, Walter Shenson, eventually verified the music was actually performed by the Beatles, presumably during the sessions for the soundtrack the week prior to the start of the filming.”

However, Winn subsequently has backed off from thinking it’s The Beatles after hearing the full 30-second track.

“It sounds to me like some band trying to imitate the Beatles’ sound,” Winn told Beatlefan. “Once I heard the full recording in good quality, it was pretty clearly not them.”

It’s notable that so far no one has been able to produce the interview where Shenson supposedly made the statement. Asked where he got that information for his book, Winn told Beatlefan: “I don’t have a citation for that — my source was Doug Sulpy’s ‘Beatles Audio Guide.’ He wrote: ‘According to Producer Walter Shenson, it’s them. Accept that or not, as you will.’ Perhaps he would know the origin of the Shenson claim.”

Beatlefan tried to get an answer out of Sulpy, but so far hasn’t heard back from him. If we do, we’ll provide an update.

Opinion on the track is greatly divided. Is it really The Beatles? Or some generic beat group stuff put down by someone else for the film that allegedly wound up in an EMI box labeled “Beatles” because it was used in a Beatles film? If it was the Fabs, it’s odd there’s no EMI documentation on that session.

Radio host Carter told Beatles Examiner he believes it’s The Beatles. “I think it’s ‘them’ for the following reasons: It sounds like them. The tape box said ‘The Beatles.’ If it was another group, that other group would have claimed it was them sometime in the last 50 years! It was found along with other music not used in the film by George Martin. And lastly I trust the sources [Morrell and fellow collector Ron Furmanek]. The big question is why it’s not noted in the Beatles recording history data. My guess is it might have been recorded during a George Martin Orchestra session. It was just recorded ‘live’ and did not have a track sheet.”

However, besides Winn, a number of other Beatles scholars who have listened to the recording either don’t believe it’s the Fab Four or are unconvinced by the current evidence.

I asked longtime Beatlefan contributing editor Allan Kozinn of the New York Times what his gut told him about the “Train Song” recording. “My gut tells me it’s not The Beatles, but I’m open to the possibility that it is,” he said. “Listening to it, my feeling is that while it doesn’t sound like any of their recordings, it’s easily within the parameters of what they could play — and if they were trying to sound generic, or perhaps, Shadows-like, rather than Beatly, that could easily be the result. The lack of documentation is a persuasive point, but it’s not necessarily dispositive. They could have recorded the track on the film set (where they had their equipment). Unfortunately, the only person who could probably tell us definitively, is Paul. But Paul’s policy these days seems to be to refuse to answer researchers’ questions, and then to tell them where they were wrong (or write a song about it) after they’ve published.”

Richard Buskin, author of a number of Beatles books (including the new “Beatles 101”), believes it definitely is not The Beatles. “It doesn’t sound like them whatsoever,” he said. “George/John playing surf guitar? I really don’t think so!”

However, European Beatles expert Roger Stormo noted that, “Even though it doesn’t quite sound like them, it could still be them. The drums don’t sound like Ringo, but it could be Paul. It could be them trying not to sound like them. If it was anybody else, then someone would have stepped forward to claim the credit for it.”

The latter point seems to be the strongest argument in favor of it, but is that enough to make the leap that those who believe it is The Beatles are making?

Robert Rodriguez, author of the “Beatles FAQ” series, initially thought it was The Beatles. “To me, it was reminiscent of ‘I Saw Her Standing There’ — a driving Chuck Berry-esque rocker, in ‘E.'”

And, he said, “the lack of documentation isn’t necessarily a deal-breaker either. I would like to believe that Paul or Ringo would remember one way or another, but I kinda doubt it. So at this point, until something more substantive surfaces, I wouldn’t take the assertion that it is them as gospel, though I wouldn’t dismiss it either.”

(Beatlefan has sent inquiries to Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr through their press offices but so far hasn’t heard back.)

Longtime Beatles discographer Wally Podrazik said that, on listening to the track online, his gut reaction was: “Why are they saying this is The Beatles?”

Podrazik said he “was trying to fit the piece into the picture of the group from [Mark] Lewisohn’s ‘Tune In.’ It is established that they could fill long hours covering any kind of song, and could probably churn out just such an instrumental riff … BUT in the controlled atmosphere of filming/the tight schedule of putting together the songs for the film (and more) in the studio, why on earth would they bother? The only argument for it is might be the group members wanting to have their music permeate the soundtrack. But since they already had George Martin creating instrumentals throughout, even that doesn’t hold up.

“If somebody came up with documentation I’d say: OK, fine. It’s them, if you say so. But absent that, it does feel generic.”

Speaking from the fan perspective, Beatlefan contributing editor Tom Frangione said: “Having heard the track, I must say it doesn’t ‘sound’ to be them. Even for an off-the-cuff bit, just comparing it to the sound of their playing (say, BBC sessions) at the time, and even the instrumentation (to say nothing of stylistic things — I’m not a drumming expert, but those don’t sound like Ringo rolls and fills). My own vote is nay.”

And what does a longtime musician intimately familiar with The Beatles’ music think? “It doesn’t sound like The Beatles to me,” Beatlefan contributing editor Jeff Slate said. “The recording doesn’t have that Abbey Road/George Martin sound … at least, in this rough sounding version. … They were better musicians, frankly. The drumming is the giveaway, right from the start. … The drums feel rushed, pushing the beat, not at all like Ringo. The intro isn’t like anything else Ringo ever played in my memory, and those fills! They’re more like Pete Best than Ringo (and I don’t mean that in a good way).

“I may be stretching here, but they also sound like a righty. The bass doesn’t lock in with the kick drum or even play around it like Paul did, even in this era, and it’s quite rudimentary. The rhythm guitar has some of John’s trademark style, but John tended to use lots of 7ths in songs in ’64 and this is more punky and straightforward. Finally, George wouldn’t be caught dead playing those solos.”

Sums up Slate: “Basically, this is too rushed and pinky feeling to my ears. But it’s conceivable that they just rolled the tape and cranked it out in one really brief pass, though I’m not convinced. Abbey Road were (and are to this day!) too anal about documentation. Maybe it was done somewhere else like the BBC, but their schedule wouldn’t really seem to allow anything else that wouldn’t be documented unless it was from a very early test session and was a scrap that had survived.”

And, going to the man many consider the ultimate source on all things Beatles, what does Mark Lewisohn say? When contacted by Beatlefan, Lewisohn said he didn’t think it was The Beatles on the tape, but, as with everything else, he awaits further information with interest.

Others think that, barring direct evidence that it’s not The Beatles, there’s no harm in assuming it is.

Furmanek told Beatles Examiner, “Why not? Until someone comes up with the 100 percent positive proof of who it actually is, why not believe?”

But to Buskin that’s “a ridiculous line of ‘reasoning.’ On that basis, why research anything? The bottom line is, aside from the instruments being played, that short recording bears as much resemblance to The Beatles as the George Martin Orchestra’s Muzak. So, until/unless we know otherwise …”

Feel free to share your thoughts on “Train Song” and whether it sounds like The Beatles.

UPDATE: Finally, somebody claims the “Train Music” clip. One of the session musicians who worked on George Martin sessions for incidental music for the film says he’s playing on the clip, not Ringo. “That’s definitely me,” drummer Clem Cattini (at that point, fresh from The Tornadoes) told Matt Hurwitz for a lengthy StudioDaily piece on the film’s restoration. “The guitars, I think, were ‘Big Jim’ Sullivan and Jimmy Page. They did a lot of the rock stuff together in those days, particularly on these kinds of sessions,” Cattini said.

However, bassist Herbie Flowers, who played on many such recordings (though not this) conjectures the 37-second cue may have simply been a library track recorded by Martin (or another producer). “It wasn’t uncommon in those days when, if a session was booked for three hours, and musicians completed their work early, to be asked then to record bits and pieces for use as library tracks.”

Giles Martin, son of George Martin and the producer who handled the sound restoration for the movie, said: “My instinct says it’s not The Beatles, but more likely the session players my dad would have gotten in for the soundtrack recording.”

McCartney still hasn’t commented on the clip, but when asked about it by the Los Angeles Times, Ringo said: “I’m afraid I have to help keep it a mystery. I don’t remember.”



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35 Responses to Mystery ’Train Song’ Has Beatles Experts Divided

  1. Great article. Has anyone asked George Martin for his opinion or knowledge on the subject?

  2. Fábio Lima says:

    Not the Beatles.

  3. Dave Nichols in Nashville says:

    Chris Carter has said he sent a message to Giles Martin to check with Sir George, as all agree he’s the one person involved whose reality was probably not altered in some way at that time and he may have a memory of it.

    I just don’t think it sounds like the Beatles – it sounds like generic soundalike music. The value of another composition in the film would have been significant, so if it had been recorded by the Fabs, Dick James or someone would have seen to it that it was published so royalties could be collected – count on it. Ditto if it had been by the rhythm section of George Martin’s orchestra (which I at first considered),

    Here’s a theory for you: It was taken from a production library – generic music recorded by studio musicians and sold to studios, radio, TV, etc. for use in commercials, incidental music, themes, etc. It would have been sold on a buyout contract, so no writers’ credit, royalties or such would have been involved. And since it would have been recorded by studio musicians, who likely could have been older, and it would not have been recorded specifically for the film, it’s possible that no one who played on it realized it had been used in the movie. Therefore, no one would have come forward to talk about it.

    • This is a solid theory. I bet this turns out to be the case. It just doesn’t sound like them in the slightest… and you’re right, if anyone of note had played it, like Gerry and the Pacemakers, etc., we likely would have heard about it decades ago.

  4. michael bean says:

    First thing I thought was ‘Badfinger’ but it’s too early for them I think. Doesn’t sound at all like George on guitar which gave it away for me. Or maybe the whole thing was a goof……?

  5. Al Sesko says:

    I never thought it was them either, and I still don’t. Just saw the clip again the other day

  6. Kit O'Toole says:

    My gut reaction is no–to me, the music sounded too generic, although it could be another one of their “parodies” of the Shadows, as was mentioned here. As Wally also says, why would they waste the time recording such a trivial bit of music? They had an album to record, a movie to film, concerts, press conferences–where would they find the time? I guess it’s always a possibility, but I’ll be interested to see if any official word determines the issue. Great investigation, Bill!

  7. Fabio Gaz Gasparini says:

    Nothing on “The Train Song” is Beatles: Ringo doesn’t drum fill like that, rhythm guitar doesn’t has the distinctive aggressive punch of John’s and so on. Even when Beatles were caught fooling around on rehearses, they never sounded this way. It seems like professional musicians doing an impression of Merseybeats guitar bands of that era. Anyway, informative debate article.

  8. Ronald K Munson says:

    I would say its not the Fabs as on any studio recordings i’ve heard, at least one Beatle counted it in. I also agree the drum fills don’t sound like Ringo.

  9. Patrick says:

    I’m a drummer in a Beatle tribute band and have been playing drums and following the Beatles for 40 years. I am 99% certain that is not Ringo playing. He wouldn’t do that roll that you hear. In addition, it doesn’t have his same feel.

  10. Pat Sounds says:

    Dream on. This is not a Beatles recording at all. To much words spilt already 🙂

  11. Ed Sullivan says:

    It’s not The Beatles.

  12. Kevin Coffey says:

    It’s these guys:

  13. Anybody who thinks this is The Beatles is disqualified from being considered an “expert”. It’s extremely obvious that the drums are not by Ringo, the bass is not by Paul, and the lead guitar is not by George. What a total beat up of a story.

    • Michael K says:

      Totally. And let’s face it, for the longest time, those who attach ‘Beatles expert’ to themselves have tended to be those who add the nonsense to the mix. I prefer ‘experts’ who have been defined as such by common agreement!

  14. rob says:

    Does it really matter, face the music is shit

  15. kevtaggart says:

    It’s definitely not The Beatles. This type of ‘Beatles’ music has been used in different documentaries down through the years.

  16. Gus says:

    Play this snippet first, then play “Ringo’s Theme” by the George Martin Orchestra. I’m with Buskin on this one.

  17. Good sum up. I don`t think it is them. Sounds like Ventures / Dick Dale kind of stuff. If it was them – we would have known for 50 years. Cheers thorsten

  18. Ian G says:

    I could be persuaded the bass and rhythm guitar could be. But that’s not Ringo, and it sounds nothing like 1964 George. Whay about the band that played the instrumental “This Boy” for the film? Why not them?

  19. Pingback: Stop the presses: Ringo Starr makes comment on mystery 'Train Music' track by Steve Marinucci | Beatles music internet radio

  20. Maybe it’s Vic Flick with the rhythm section of the George Martin Orchestra? ? He played on “Ringo’s Theme” –

  21. Tery Daly says:

    The argument that If it WAS someone else they would have come forward to claim the credit for it…if this was something done by some session musicians, it’s a 42 second long piece of music, It does sound like two guitars, bass, drums, so it’s just 4 players, it was probably one of a dozen different sessions they may have played on that day. out of dozens every day, done FIFTY+ years ago. and they may have had NO idea what it was they were doing it for, not knowing it was for inclusion in a Beatles movie.

    If it was session players, it might possibly have been THE most forgettable piece of music they ever recorded in their entire career, so to say that no one claims credit for it means it IS The Beatles doesn’t hold water with me.

    Just listen to interviews with people like Carole Kaye or Hal Blaine or any session musician. they worked on A LOT of stuff all the time and had no idea who or what it was for.

  22. Skip Olsen says:

    It is logical it is The Beatles. Here’s why:

    1. Limited time and money. To pay another band to go into a studio & jam a bit – then either pay the band royalties for authorship and performance or to but it out directly is cost prohibitive in both time and cash.

    2. “But it doesn’t sound like them!” It’s not supposed to. The Beatles knew that when they recorded it – played unlike themselves on purpose.

    3. “Why not just have Ringo turn on the radio & it’s (coincidentally) The Beatles?” It’s a bit self-serving. It would cast a poor light on The Beatles for sure.

    3. How many bands are in this film anyway? After all, you’re working with The Beatles – would you really want a different band in the film at all? It had to be them – any other band would have come out and said it was them just for the publicity

    It’s The Beatles, kids. No doubt.

    • Chad Richard Smalley says:

      Skip, you’re overlooking the theory put forth above by Dave Nichols: it could be pre-recorded music from a production library. Generic “canned” music that was originally recorded for some previous project. It makes total sense that the filmmakers would go dig something like that up if they needed it in a pinch. It would have saved them time and money, and it would explain why there’s no record of the Beatles ever recording it and why it doesn’t sound anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) like them. A far more logical conclusion, in my opinion.

      • Skip Olsen says:

        With respect, I didn’t overlook Dave’s thoughts,and while I appreciate his logic, I doubt his conclusion. While it is well known that EMI has had the largest sound recordings library on the planet – all types of sound effects, etc. (Pink Floyd seemed to live in there for some time) it seems to me to be it would be difficult to locate such a piece in that massive library if, in fact, that was the one “they” might look in. One also has to remember it would be the movie company that would have to have the legal right to go searching in any given library. If they didn’t have they’re own they’d have to pay whomever owned the library – either way it doesn’t seem likely to me.
        Remember one thing, though. It wasn’t SUPPOSED to sound like The Beatles. If The Beatles did record it – they would have purposefully tried NOT to sound like themselves. Any argument based on “…but, it doesn’t sound like them…” holds no credibility. I still believe it’s them.

  23. Reblogged this on The Glass and commented:
    Funny, I always thought it was The Beatles when I heard it.

  24. Michael K says:

    I haven’t heard it and probably won’t bother because the reasons given by ‘experts’ for positing it’s them are nonsense. Ask Jimmy Page or Elton Jon about some session tracks they played on and they’ll tell you they didn’t or that they don’t remember.
    So if this was a bunch of session musicians, there’d be no grasping for credit as implied by the experts to suggest it must be The Beatles. That’s if the piece of music had even been recorded purposefully for the movie. Surely some expert should have heard of ‘stock’ footage and ‘stock’ music. It’s ever so slightly a part of film production.

  25. Michael K says:

    Could I be so bold as to correct Alan Kozinn on the following:
    “Paul’s policy these days seems to be to refuse to answer researchers’ questions, and then to tell them where they were wrong (or write a song about it) after they’ve published.”
    “Paul’s policy these days seems to be to concentrate on generating new material and experiences rather than joining Factioid merchants at the raking over of ashes.”


  26. Pingback: Ringo’s radio: Is it them? – The Daily Beatle

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